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Rosemarie Trockel talks to Isabelle Graw - '80s Then - Interview
ArtForum, March, 2003
ISABELLE GRAW: In the late '70s you applied to the Kunstakademie Dusseldorf but were rejected and ended up at the lesser-known Fachhochschule fur Kunst und Design in Cologne. What kinds of artistic or social possibilities did you see developing at that time? That is, how was what Bourdieu called the "space of possibilities" taking shape?
ROSEMARIE TROCKEL: Well, I had little "space" at my disposal: I suffered from a case of agoraphobia that more or less defined my life. For a long time I could leave my apartment only with great effort. My teacher Werner Schriefers, the former director of the school, always had to come to my house. In Cologne at that time there was a euphoric feeling that something new was just beginning, but because of my condition I found myself in an artistic vacuum. Such a phobia could be seen as a reaction to those spaces I felt drawn to but that seemed inaccessible to me.
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IG: Were you able to go out at night? Did the phobia apply only to very crowded spaces?
RT: I could sometimes leave the house if someone accompanied me, and I would visit friends when not too many people were over. But the agoraphobia kept me from developing an artistic vision. I spent my time drawing, which I was "good" at. Also, I had no idea what it might mean for me to be an artist, since there were no female role models. My first contact with the art scene was in 1980, when I got to know several members of the newly formed group Mulheimer Freiheit. A little while later I met Monika Spruth. I had noticed her at a concert at school and started talking to her, and from then on we saw each other a lot. She was working as an urban planner in the Ruhr region. When she told me that she wanted to become an artist, I suggested that we rent a room together and work there.
IG: Were you two making collaborative works?
RT: No, we were far too different for that. But we spent time together working as artists, which turned out to be extraordinarily helpful to me. Monika was a perfect companion. I visited my first galleries and exhibition spaces with her.
IG: What seemed promising about the Mulheimer Freiheit?
RT: They didn't take the art world seriously-particularly Jiri Georg Dokoupil, who had studied with Hans Haacke. They turned the myth of the artist on its head, doing things like making paintings together and promoting them as the work of one artist. They practically fetishized group creativity. That attracted a lot of artists, myself included. When Paul Maenz opened his first show with Walter Dahn, Dokoupil, and Peter Bommels, the gallery was totally packed--it was a real social event. But not exactly my world.
IG: In what way?
RT: At school we had tended to focus on ourselves, and now all of a sudden we were invited to participate in the Malaktionen, the group painting sessions. I profited from the situation, but the force of the group was too much for me. When I realized that their style had become my style too, I withdrew. I felt as if I were too weak, and yet at the same time too strong. I preferred to work alone or with Monika, where we each stayed centered, on our own.
IG: Nevertheless, it sounds as though the group dynamic was enormously important for you, because it was at once supportive and motivating. Finally there were people around who struggled with similar problems and with whom you could exchange ideas.
RT: Certainly. Conversations about art had become popular in the truest sense of the word. They were taking place everywhere, especially in bars.
IG: What was your work like at that time?
RT: Primarily I drew, but I was also painting and producing my first sculptures. Other than that, I made short Super-S films, with which I'd been having a lot of fun since studying with filmmaker Robert van Ackeren.
IG: Around 1983 or '84, another group of artists came to Cologne, led by Martin Kippenberger. This created a competitive situation: on the one side the adherents of Mulheimer Freiheit, and on the other side Kippenberger's group. Monika Spruth and her newly opened gallery formed a kind of third pole.
RT: Yes, Monika had given up making art after she decided that she wasn't good enough. Shortly thereafter she curated her first exhibition in our studio rooms, with the work of several Mulheimer Freiheit artists.
IG: Wasn't Paul Maenz already representing many of them?
RT: That's right, but we had become very good friends with Maenz, so there was no competition with him, at least when it came to a group exhibition. The show was a huge success, and it prompted Monika to think about opening her own gallery. It was fun for her, and it was the beginning of a restructuring. I moved to the attic, and she opened her gallery. A little while later, I had my first exhibition there.
IG: Jutta Koether once described in a catalogue essay how Monika dedicated herself to the promotion of your work.
RT: You could see it like that. Monika took on a lot of my obligations for me because I was so confined by my agoraphobia. There were even times when she made appearances as Rosemarie Trockel.
