Up The Organization - Joep Van Lieshout, Atelier van Lieshout - Interview

ArtForum, April, 2001 by Jennifer Allen

JA: There also seems to be a contradiction between your belief in individualism and the collective nature of your works. The Modular Multi Women Bed--whether it serves polygamy or lesbian orgies--is designed for a collectivity, not an individual. How do you bring the two together?

JVL: Again, I like the contradiction. Of course, the bed can be used in many ways, but the point is that the decision will be made by individuals who are free to negotiate among themselves what kind of collectivity and sexual experience they want to create together. A bed with only two sleeping spots decides for you and respects the law of monogamy, which is dictated by the state. With room for up to sixteen, our bed respects the law of desire, which is always being rewritten.

JA: What kind of currency will fuel the libidinal economy?

JVL: We are printing our own money, AVL coins and bills, which are fantastically beautiful. We have to find a sponsor, perhaps a museum, to print them. Having our own currency allows us to get around some laws, for example, a liquor license. We will also accept guilders and euros, since AVL-Ville is not intended to be completely autocratic. We need many things from the outside world for working: tools materials, food, drinks. But some parts will remain independent, not only for our economy and freedom, but just because it's possible to do it.

JA: In the past you've made bathrooms for various projects, most notably for Rem Koolhaas's Grand Palais in Lille. Are you ready for community sewage?

JVL: Of course. We're trying to manage both waste and energy. Heat will be generated by burning scrap wood; everything that has to do with excrement will be very visual. We're making a huge machine for generating biogas, Biodigestor, 2001-, which will allow us to use manure and excrement to produce our own gas for cooking. It's an interesting process that's not exploited enough because these machines are very difficult to make-but we'll solve those problems. Another way to use excrement is with our Compost Toilet, 2001, which is designed for domestic spaces. The entire machine is about twenty feet tall and works on two floors: You have a toilet unit on one floor and a large cylindrical container below that turns the excrement into compost. The whole process will remain visible; after one year, you can have great compost or sell it as souvenirs, like Manzoni's shit: AVL shit.

JA: Currency, sewage, energy--are you going to tackle any other state monopolies in the Netherlands? What about incarceration?

JVL: I had a plan to make a prison in my proposal for Almere, with an economy based on illegal activities. It would be great to make a factory for prisoners because they're expensive for the state: Guards, medical bills, housing--a prisoner can cost up to $25,000 a year. We can make cheaper prisons; the prisoners from Europe could come and work here, and the state would only have to pay half the cost. The inmates could work in the drug and alcohol factory and then enjoy themselves at night. It would be free labor for us, the state would save $12,500, and the prisoners would be happy. It'd be a great way to make money.